Have answers for these questions? Email us! (please do not quote the bible – give us answers we can understand as non-believers) Have any other good questions we can add? email us!
The bible does have decent stories – but….
The Bible is NOT the word of God
Past ‘Gods” are nearly identical
Selective Reading
Current Miracles Not Occurring
Questions about free will
Evil Acts in the Bible
Suffering
“Personal Experience”
Selective Anti-science Belief
Bible Contradictions<br Christians of different faiths believe different things
Templeton Prayer Study
Prayer does not work or is even needed
Evolution
No evidence
Homosexuallity
Why kill so many people?
Proselytization.
Why does the Bible support immoral behavior?
Why can’t we do the works of Jesus?
The Bible has some good stories, but ……
Yes the bible does have decent stories of morality – but most of the stories that are in the bible come from other pagan stories which survived many generations before. There are many good and moral stories from the many other religions of the world – from Buddhism and Confucianism for example. Why do Christians single out the good verses in the bible as being exclusive to Christianity? The majority of the Bible is full of murders and killing, especially in the old testament. Just take a look at Numbers 31. 32,000 Minanites are killed. Morality does not come from religion. Morality comes from humanity. It is inate within us as a species.
The Bible is NOT the word of God
The 3 books of Luke and Matthew and John were close copies of Mark’s writings, and Mark copied Paul’s writing. Paul wrote only about the crucifixion, resurrection and assention and none of the other bible stories or miracles in around 74CE – the closest writer to the (mythical) Jesus. Most Biblical scholars agree that all the Gospel writings were from 125-160AD. In 325AD, Eusebius, the pet bishop of Constantine, compiled and edited all the books in the first canon, or the first compilation of the Bible. Eusebius added verses and deleted entire books to better conform to the church’s ideas of Christianity. There were over 200 books (gospels and letters) that were reviewed. During 325 – 395CE the bishops voted on the books to be included. In 396CE the vote count was 586 to 583!!! That means over half the bishops disagreed with what books were finally in the Bible! Several bishops were so angry they killed each other! I’m not making this up!! How can this by divinely inspired? The Bible is NOT the word of a God but of man. See more at www.jcnot4me.com
Past ‘Gods” are nearly identical
There were 8 popular gods before Jesus – Horus from Egypt (3000bc) Krishna from India, Mithra from Persia are several examples. Nearly all were born on Dec 25 by a virgin, many performed miracles, most were child teachers, nearly all had 12 brothers of 12 disciples, all had a cruel death and all were resurrected after 3 days and went to a ‘heaven’. Why do Christians maintain that their Jesus is special aside from the fact that there were many similar gods before him that are very similar to Jesus? Search for ‘truth about religion’ on youtube and see how gods are invented with astronomy and astrology in mind. A good book about this is “Sun of God” by Acharya. Jesus was a myth just like the gods before him. He was built up over the years through a very common ‘legend’making’ sequence where one writer takes a story and embellishes if more, while the next writer or scribe who copies the story adds even more. This is exactly what happend in the Gospel writings. In 325CE Ecibius declared that Jesus was really a god-man, and the LITERAL interpretation of the Bible was now law. Before that time, most people knew that god-men were really myths and that there was no crossover between their Gods and a human on earth. They worshiped the gods, but the mystical god-men were ‘intermediaries’ to relate to everyone here on earth. Even Paul wrote tat Jesus was not of human form and was more of an ethereal spirit.
Selective Reading
Most Christians don’t read the bible, and when they do, only the good verses. Why don’t they read and debate the evil parts? (see evilbible.com or darkbible.com) Most Christians do not know the unjust and horrendously cruel and evil verses are even present in the Bible. The Bible even says to read ALL of the Bible! If you are a Christian, why don’t you read the parts in your holy book that you would certainly disagree with? And if you disagree with ANY of the bible – are other sections also suspect? Which verses do you live your life by? Even one of the commandments – “Though shall not work on the Sabath” is clearly not obeyed by modern society. Do you eat shellfish? Do you pray ‘in the closet’? Why do Christians admit they ‘cherry-pick’ the parts of the Bible?
Current Miracles Not Occurring
Why were so many miracles written 2000 years ago and none can be verified from outside (the Bible) sources? Why aren’t large miracles witnessed by hundreds or thousands of people today? Floods instantly receding, the sun standing still, snakes talking? Why wasn’t Jesus born in today’s society where the miracles could have been documented for all to see on national or worldwide TV? Would’t there me more Christian converts this way? The argument against this is the ‘hidden god’ – but if god wanted us to convert – wouldn’t he/she/it allow us to see the ‘light’ to be converted? Any why was hi not hidden in Jesus’ time? Also, who REALLY knows if god is hidden? – that seems to just be a weak excuse for miracles not occurring now. Any why hasn’t any amputees been healed in modern times? see http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Evil Acts in the Bible
Why is there so much incredibly unjust, cruelty and evil acts which God did and which God told others to do in the Bible? Over 371,000 people were killed directly by God and over 1,800,000 people were killed by other people commanded by God. (I Bishop actually did the counting) Daughters could be sold as sex slaves, men should castrate themselves to get to heaven quicker, and fathers should kill their family members if they did not believe in God. I’m not making this up! See evilbible.com (not affiliated with backyard skeptics) and be blown away with how many atrocities are committed in the holy book. Many Christians try and rationalize these evil acts because of the good verses in the bible – but why judge the book from just the good sections? Shouldn’t we judge the book in it’s entirety? In reading Bible myself I find many more unjust and evil verses than good ones .
Questions about free will
Why did god give us free will and the curiosity to think atheistically if he wanted us all to be believers? If God is omniscient (knows all past, present and future) then there cannot be free will. If there is free will, how can God be omniscient – because he does not know what we will do with our free will?
How can God have free will if HE knows everything in the future? He can’t have both.
If God gave all of mankind freewill, then it should negate any praying that any person will do if it involves the free will of others. For example – if you pray for anyone to do something, change their mind, change their behavior, or basically do anything to change that person, the prayer should not work – why? Because God cannot change a persons behavior simply because someone else is praying for the change, because every person has free will and decides on his own how he/she will behave. Another example is of a Gangbanger, who has freewill, and is just about to shoot at someone on your street, missing his target, and the bullet will end up going through your house, possibly harming your family. No one can pray to protect them from such an event, as that would eliminate any freewill that God has given the gangbanger. A religious person CAN pray for any natural event such rain, no floods or no earthquakes, but that brings up another issue:
God controlling everything in our world and creating suffering
If any religious person believes God can change natural events because of prayer, that person also must accept absolutely that God causes all natural events including disasters to occur. If this is the case, then God must be blamed for all natural disasters from the beginning of the world. Where is the all-loving god if so many innocent people are killed? This is a question that apologetics have wrestled for centuries.
Another example is rain (or any other natural occurrence) Praying to a God that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent for rain is an oxymoron because it is God who eliminated the rain in the first place and also knows that believers would be praying for it. Are the believers really trying to change God’s mind? If so, then this is another example of how said God cannot be omniscient. If he changes his mind then he has changed the future, and since he supposedly knows the future ahead of time how can he change it?
Knowing and Loving your God
If you want to love another person, you have to get to know them. How do you get to know god if you want him to love you? Does he speak to you through your mind? If I told you I had a god called the FSM (flying spaghetti monster) and my god spoke to me either through my mind or by an actual voice – what would you as a Christian think of me? Delusional? Exactly!
“Personal Experience”
Christians often say they know god and Jesus are real because they ‘feel’ their presence. What makes these Christians think they are feeling anything that other religious people following a different deity? The brain is a huge drug factory, and a certain state-of-mind can induce the brain to produce a plethora of different chemicals to make the body feel many different things.
Morals
One argument for Christians is that American society has less traditional values than in the past. This is a direct contradiction, especially to Christian’s because there are more Christians in America than ever before! If there are more Christians and they say they have better morals than non-Christians, then why is there less traditional values? Why are there more people in prison than ever before?
Selective Anti-science Belief
Why do Christians not believe in scientists that study paleontology (fossil records) but when they get sick and go to the hospital, they absolutely belief the science of medicine. Why disbelieve one and not the other? Doesn’t both arrive at their discoveries through the same scientific method? Is this ‘selective’ beliefs? If the scientific hypothesis and the scientific process true for one thing, such as our microwave oven, wouldn’t it be true for radio-carbon dating machines? If so why do Creationists believe in one machine and discount the other?
Christians of different faiths believe different things
Why is this? Why is there different interpretations of the Bible? If so – why didn’t God speak more clearly? If they were all inspired by god wouldn’t all the religions have the same morality and dogma? Are the many gods that speak to the authors of superstitious books all different? If there was only one God, then shouldn’t the bible be the same in other countries and other cultures? There are over 36000 Christian sects – Why do they deny or accept different pars of the Bible?
Bible Contradictions
There are more than 2500 of clear contradictions in the Bible. (look for bible contradictions on google) Wouldn’t God-inspired authors get the same message from the almighty? Many leaders of religion has rationalized these contradictions – how can they not? They MUST explain these questions or people wouldn’t have a reason to keep believing. One of the best books on this subject is ‘The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy’ by McKinsley
Templeton Prayer Study
Why doesn’t prayer work? If it really did work we’d be able to see clear evidence of it. The Templeton Study was a $2,000,000 study which the Templeton Group in Phoenix, AZ hired professional scientists to study how prayer affected patients in hospitals. They conclusion – the same as 49 previous studies during the past 52 years – that prayer had NO affect on the patients. What’s curious – is that those patients who were told they were in the study and were prayed for actually did worse than the control group! Christians often explain that there is a ‘hidden God’ which is a very weak reason for explaining the omnipotent. NOBODY KNOWS if god is hidden!!
Prayer does not work and is not needed Prayer doesn’t work. There have been 62 studies in the past 50 years and all but two show prayer has no effect and the two were inconclusive. But let’s take a closer look at prayer.
If God is omniscient, then he already knows if we need anything in our lives. If HE is omniscient even knows BEFORE we know! So why pray if He already knows not only what we will need before we need it, but He knows that we will be praying for it before we do.
The silliest reason I think prayer is just wishful thinking is that if we are so infinitesimally small compared to the believer’s God, how does anyone expect to chane His mind? Especially if He konws we will be asking Him before we do? we are a small spic of nothingness to Him. If he knows the outcome of all, who are we to chane the outcome? In fact, just the fact that believers clain that God need their help is an outright Denial that God exists, for if God exists, he has everything planned for the believer. No wishful thinking or prayer can change His mind. If God allows anything to happen on earth, it implies that HE has full knowledge of what will happen. Nor only He can stop bad things frm happening, he PLANNED them as well!
Evolution
Creationists believe that god has performed unimaginable feats of grandeur – making the earth – making man, that the earth is only 6000 years old and man walked beside the dinosaurs. What really earks me about the creationists is that there reason of “God DId It’ is an “end all” reasoning and then accordingly – we don’t have to look for the reason! If this isn’t a blow to scientific discovery, I do not know what is! If god did it – why are we discovering new fossil evidence to fill in the gaps? If “God Did It” how did he do it?? Creationists just leave these questions ambiguously answered by “God did it” that neatly fits within their religious ideology – while scientists are rolling up their sleeves and working to discover the real truth about our natural world by exploring it.
Scientists who are ‘literalists’ who claim that the Bible is 100% accurate about mankind’s beginnings,are in a very small minority. About 1-2%. 98% of scientists in the fiepaleontologyntology, geology and anthropology believe in evolution. Why are literalists so demanding that their view of the world is correct despite overwhelming evidence contraryntracry? If you think it is to support their faith, you are correct. They believe they MUST believe in every word no matter how silly it sounds because it’s the only way to get into heaven. Do you seee this being beling a little selfish?? I do. Maybe a little easy to command the flock? Anti-free-thinkers? They setup an answer (the Bible) and then create all the evidence to support it – not exactly the scientific method.
Whay are National Academy of Scientists mostly atheists? 93% of scientists in this elite group have “no personal relationship” with God.. Why are smart people who dedicate their lives to discovering what’s most important about the natural world agnostic/atheists? It’s because they can simply think for themselves. One might think correctly that those who do most of the thinking in our society are unbelievers. Do people that are easily swayed into believing because they do not think? Probably not, but it’s a fact that intelligent people are more likely to be atheistic than not. Why do Christians feel demeaned by this statement?? If it is really true then would some Christians start asking more questions about their faith and even slip into the ‘doubtfulness’ of atheistic enlightenment?
No evidence
Most people believe their god on faith. There is no evidence of the existence of a GOD. But if there was a God, he could easily make undeniable prove that he exists, but he does not.
Homosexuality Why do Christinas take the verse aout a man sleeping wiht another man as a woman so seriously and then completely ignore another verse only 3 verses away that says not to eat shelfish?
If the homosexual were as abhorrent to God as most fundamentalists imply, the homosexual wouldn’t last a millisecond. Otherwise, God cannot be omnipotent. Why would an omnipotent God need someone else to persecute the homosexual for Him? If God is saying, “I’ll let him live, but he’s still abhorrent” it implies that God’s behavior isn’t consistent with what He wants. Why would God want something abhorrent to him to continue to exist?
Why kill so many people?
Why kill over 2.2 million people if they were going to end up in hell anyway? The Bible tells us that this natural world is nothing compared to eternity, so why make an example of those who do not follow all the strict guidelines of Christianity? Wouldn’t it be a much more credible religion if god and his followers never killed anyone? (see Janism)
Proselytization. There is a saying in Buddhism that where the student is ready, the teacher is provided. Such a concept certainly affirms the power of God to bring the word of God to the sincere seeker. Why then, does the fundamentalist almost always assume that God needs him to go out and spread God’s word? If God is omnipotent, He doesn’t need anyone to proselytize on His behalf. He’s quite capable of steering the seeker in the direction of His word all by Himself.
Why does the Bible support immoral behavior?
There are hundreds of immoral verses in the Bible. Why, if God was responsible for dictating the book to man, did he create morals that would be thought of as totally immoral today?? Christians are proud that their book is supposedly inerrant – then why do they insist that only the verses THEY select should be upheld today and the rest are metaphors? Examples
Slavery – it is proper to harshly punish a slave as long as he does not die
Degradation to women (they were just above cattle and dogs in society)
A father can stone his son or daughter to death for insubordination
A rapist must marry the woman he raped and pay the father
and hundreds more at
http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm
http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/ash-bibleshocking.shtml
(sexuality) http://t0llenz.blogspot.com/2007/05/sexual-immorality-in-bible.html
Why can’t we do the works of Jesus?
Jesus said, “he who believes in Me…greater works than these he will do,” in John 14:12. Obviously there has been no greater works (if you are a Christian) than Jesus. Why can’t believers do greater works than Jesus?
Hi, the reason why prayer didn’t work in the hospital study is because the people DIDN’T HAVE FAITH. And the reason why God doesn’t provide us with absolute knowledge of His existence is because he wants us to get back to Him on faith. That’s why He gave us free will. Maybe if you were open to religion and didn’t have your heart set on believing in nothing, you would feel the spirit. Try reading the Book of Mormon. You know it’s sad that you are so blinded to the world that you would try to make people believe in nothing.
So – are you saying those people in the hospital did not have faith? How do YOYr know – of course you don’t but you have to try and give a weak excuse for the fact that all people of all faiths (and even atheists ‘hopes’ ) get answered equally. Period. No absolute knowledge? There was absolute knowledge 2000 years ago, but of course you have to think you know the mind of the unknowable to explain this as well. Free will – I thought your God was omniscient? If so he knows what His ‘plan’ is wit us and konws every decision we will meake – and therefore there is no free will, IMO There is no God.
I’m just going to adress three of the issues that were presented in the questions above, from my personal point of view.
Freewill: The way I see it freewill is a state of mind not an action. I don’t believe that freewill is one’s ability to act on their own but the fact that they are not informed of what the outcome of their decisions will be. Think of a parent who has placed freshly baked cookies in a jar 1hr before dinner and tells their 9yr old to not eat any until after dinner. Of course the parent knows that the child will most likely eat a cookie before dinner, but it wasn’t a trap, it’s just that the parent know their child so well and therefore knows what to expect. God made us and knows everything about us so he knows what to expect from us, he knows when we are conflicted and when we will do something that we will regret later, but he lets us figure that out for ourselves, and that is where freewill comes in.
Evolution: There have been many arguments over evolution vs. creation but I don’t see why they can’t coexists. I believe that in some instances the Bible is taken too literally based on what we know today in modern times. The whole God made the world in 7days is not equivalent to what we view as 7 days in modern times. For all we know God’s 7days are equivalent to our 1000 years. For God time is infinite he does not exist within set boundaries. So yes by that logic humans could have existed at the same time as dinosaurs and earth could have very well been made ~2bil years before humans appeared. Secondly I have a problem with the question against creation that some evolutionists pose, that if ‘God made us then who made God?’; well if you don’t believe in the existence of God then how did we end up here? Evolution from apes, okay, but then how did they gert here? atoms did not just appear from nowhere and overtime evolve into such complex forms that they just merged together to create humans, trees, animals, the sun and the moon. Yes I believe in evolution to some extent, but as far as the beginnings of this earth, some entity had to start the ball rolling.
Religion (General): I believe that all religions are entertwined somehow. That we all have some of the same basic beliefs in a higher being. I feel that we just describe the higher being in a way that we can relate to. Some of us call this higher being God, some Buddah, some Jupiter or Krishna or Horus. And I believe that some religions split the higer being into different entities to make it easier to wrap their heads around, but that they are all derived from the same basic thought. But just like we can’t all agree on whether a higher being exists or not, those who do believe in one can’t all agree on what its most important reasons are, or the right way it should be honored. Next I think we are too caught up on religious titles that we attribute the beliefs to whatever the title is and forget the importance of the belief. By saying that it is a religion that does something then we are saying that the religion (by this I mean the title) rules the people when in fact it is the people that make up the religion and therfore rule it. Saying that religion rules the people is saying that people have no freewill. I guess the example in this case would be religion= a car and the person= the driver. To say the car caused the accident or that the car was speeding leaves the driver without any control but the driver was in control because (s)he was the one responsible for being aware and adjusting the speed.
And very quickly to adress why God would continue to let something exists that he finds abhorrent. Think about it just because your kid lies to or steals from you doesn’t mean you love them anyless (at least I hope not) but you are dissappointed. I believe that we are all Gods children so it works the same way with him. God is just like us but has a million times the patience, will power, size, emotion (he didn’t lie when he said he was a jealous God, just like you wouldn’t appreciate your kid loving their stepmother/father (can be metaphors for materialistic items not just other people) more than you), strength and ability.
I agree with Pascal. I rather live my life on a high believing that there is something better for me in the end ( and if it doesn’t exists then at least I’ve lived my life happy with hope) than to not have believed in God (and he exists) and I miss out on a great existence.
Again, please share with me how you know that all these societies were doing was “having great sex and not harming anyone else”?
On immorality – where does that standard come from? “Our courts” is not a sufficient example, they have not always existed and different courts in different places have different rules. Why is harming another bad if it does not harm society overall and improves my life (and I don’t get punished)?
I don’t fully understand your last comment. However, just to summarize – my position is this: the societies that were wiped out were not innocent (and therefore this was killing, yes, but not murder). With reference to the Canaanites author Norman Geisler has commented, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.” (From: http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-violence.html)
They were given years to repent and change, and did not do it. Now, on a personal level, I don’t love that. I wish they had. I wish there had been another punishment that was more suitable. On the other hand, as a finite creature, I do not set the standard for holiness or righteousness. And I certainly don’t get to dictate the response when that standard is repeatedly and severely violated.
As a Christian, it is my belief that the children who were affected by this were taken immediately into the presence of God and will spend eternity in heaven – a far better fate than they would have had otherwise.
As to the prophets, I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. There are many reasons I personally believe that, and you can read for yourself from countless good apologetic resources. As such, I do hold what the prophets of the Old Testament said in higher regard than someone like the Waco, TX guy. You are welcome to keep them on equal footing and judge them by the same measuring stick. In doing so, you will likely have a different response to all of this than I do, and that’s certainly your choice.
I apologize for some of the snarkiness I have had in some of my posts. That was in poor taste and I am sorry. I wish you well and have enjoyed our exchanges.
Where did you learn that those societies were just “having great sex and not harming anyone else”?
Unjust and immoral based on what? What is the standard for justice or morality? Who sets that? You? Me? Is it the same for all of humanity?
I agree that “God said to do it” is not a green card for anything. But surely you realize that there is a lot more to the accounts of the prophets from the Old Testament than that.
Then please educate me – what was so sinful that thousands of people had to die? There is a standard of immoral behavior – simply when when others are harmed. The is the standard which is not religious, but secular in nature and based though our court systems. And in general, yes it is the same for all of humanity, although culture and religious influences make some laws seem harsh to modern societies.
You are switchin subject on you last comment – ‘if god says it’ as all you need and has nothing to do with other prophets. Are you saying since a prophet like Moses said it – then it’s OK to murder people?
So evil should never be restrained or punished? Should the Nazis have been allowed to continue on forever? How someone like Joseph Kony and his followers? Does the behavior of the groups that were wiped out in the Bible bother you at all?
You must be a bible literalist. Yes evil should be constrained. But f anyone says “God told be to do it” then everything is permissible. Plus the Nazis were killing millions of people – unlike thi Minanites and Cananites (sp) who were just having great sex and not doing harm to anyone else. Personally I do not believe that the thousands were killed, but what bothers me is you and many others think it is OK to kill others simply because OTHERS (religious leaders0 told people to do so in the name of a non-existent deity. – except when you’re in the modern world. These commandments by God are unjust and immoral.
Alakazaam-inforiamton found, problem solved, thanks!
There were some typos in that….this is cleaned up a bit.
Ok, this will be my last comment because quite honestly, I don’t think you are interested in truth, I think you are interested in perpetuating myths, lies and general rhetoric that may sound nice (to you), but has no basis in reality.
Let’s start with Numbers 31. First of all, I am not sure why you have an issue with killing. If there is no God, there is no absolute standard and if one nation wants to kill another to further its way of life (that is not what happened, but rather is just being put forth by me to demonstrate inconsistency in your viewpoint), then so be it. Why is that wrong? Why should that society not do that? There is no good. There is no bad. How can you call the God of the Bible “evil”. What is “evil”? Where did your idea of good versus evil come from?
But, I digress.
On Numbers 31, if you care to read an apologetic commentary on the matter, you may do so at http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=763. If you prefer just to stick to “God is evil (based on my finite understanding) and I therefore reject Him (until I die and find out I was wrong and it is too late)”, then that is certainly your choice. Finite creatures don’t set the standard for holiness. An infinitely holy eternal Being on the other hand does (and has).
Second: “It’s a fact that intelligent people are more likely to be atheistic than not. ”
Really? That’s news to me. I was just listening to a talk the other day that said the exact opposite and had valid studies to back it up. Strange.
Third: “Prayer does not work and is not needed”. There have been 62 studies in the past 50 years and all but two show prayer has no effect and the two were inconclusive.”
Also news to me. My friend is on this trip right now:
http://updates.theworldrace.org/?filename=god-heals-in-mozambique-a-testimony
Of course healings are considered subjective evidence, so I don’t expect that one story to sway you. But it should at a minimum make you reconsider your “prayer does not work” standpoint.
Fourth: “Past ‘Gods” are nearly identical”…yet, strangely enough, they don’t have a worldwide following. To my knowledge no one was willing to be martyred for any of them. No one willing to face torture, persecution, etc. That is strange indeed. Again, if you are going to put forth these claims, that is your choice (free will and all), but just be aware that there is a lot of good information out there that says otherwise. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html
Fifth – “the Bible is NOT the word of God” – do me a favor, read the newly released book “Has God Spoken” by Hank Hanegraaff. Or “The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. Or anything on the resurrection by Gary Habermas. Or read debates between a Christian and an atheist:
http://www.equipresources.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=juKOL1NNKiIQI1NLL9KMJ8PQImKZJ3PJJkJ5LdMVIuKbG&ProductID=430694
Or a guide to a recent Bart Ehrman book:
http://www.equipresources.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=hiKKJVNFJgJMKVODJ7IIK2NIIkJVKXPBKiL1J7NNIsK7G&ProductID=489326
If you will not accept the manuscript evidence for the Bible, then you really cannot accept it for anything else in history. But of course, we do accept lots of other writings as historically accurate….many with much less evidence than the writings that we today call the Bible. Try applying the same standard to the writings of the Bible as is applied to everything else and see what you get.
You may not change your mind (again with the free will), but at least you will be informed about what the other side REALLY thinks and not just what you think we do.
Sixth – you address evolution (some) but completely ignore the biggest problem for atheists – how did the universe begin? Most scientists agree it is not eternal, therefore it had a beginning. Everything that begins has a cause. What is that cause? Even if you argue that, as another atheist said elsewhere “it began as light and would have spontaneously begun generating matter as the initial energy levels would have caused matter conversion to begin”, that leaves a lot of unanswered questions – a) the photons still had to come from somewhere, b) why exactly would the initial energy levels have been great enough to have caused matter conversion to begin (and this just “spontaneously” happened)?, c) where would enough energy come from to create enough mass to form an entire universe? and d) matter does not equal biological life or diversity of non-life.
Evolution is really a secondary question that is not answered until you can demonstrate the creation of the entire universe could come from absolutely nothing (out of thin air) and develop into the universe we see today. And that life can come from non-life. Then we can start arguing about where complex life came from.
I could go through all of your other points one by one, but that would be a fruitless (and long) exercise. Ultimately, your case boils down to “well, I don’t think God should be like this or Christians believe x (straw man) and I don’t like that” so God is not real and I am right and Christians are all morons.
Assume for a minute that there is a Creator of the universe. An infinite, eternal, all-powerful, fully holy Being capable of making the sun, planets, lightening, a brain, etc. Do you really, really in your heart believe that one of his finite creatures with a life span of 75ish years should a) be able to fully understand Him and b) dictate how He should be?
I reads your apologetic link – sorry but “They were so evil that their Creator no longer could abide their corruption.” gives no reason for killing others. Voltarie said “Those who believe in absurdities can easily commit atrocities” Imagine, in today’s time, if some holy man declared that 36000 people should be killed because of what he THOUGHT god said – it’s a ridiculous and infantile answer to the killing of others.
Ok, this will be my last comment because quite honestly, I don’t think you are interested in truth, I think you are interested in perpetuating myths, lies and general rhetoric that may sound nice (to you), but has no basis in reality.
Let’s start with Numbers 31. First of all, I am not sure why you have an issue with killing. If there is no God, there is no absolute standard and if one nation wants to kill another to further its way of life (that is not what happened, but rather is just being put forth by me to demonstrate inconsistency in your viewpoint), then so be it. Why is that wrong? Why should that society not do that? There is no good. There is no bad. How can you call the God of the Bible “evil”. What is “evil”? Where did your idea of good versus evil come from?
But, I digress.
On Numbers 31, if you care to read an apologetic commentary on the matter, you may do so at http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=763. If you prefer just to stick to “God is evil (based on my finite understanding) and I therefore reject Him (until I die and find out I was wrong and it is too late)”, then that is certainly your choice. Finite creatures don’t set the standard for holiness. An infinitely holy eternal being on the other hand does (and has).
Second: “Probably not, but it’s a fact that intelligent people are more likely to be atheistic than not. ”
Really? That’s news to me. I was just listening to a talk the other day that said the exact opposite and had valid studies to back it up. Strange.
Third: “Prayer does not work and is not needed Prayer doesn’t work. There have been 62 studies in the past 50 years and all but two show prayer has no effect and the two were inconclusive.”
Also news to me. My friend is on this trip right now:
http://updates.theworldrace.org/?filename=god-heals-in-mozambique-a-testimony
Of course healings are considered subjective evidence, so I don’t expect that one story to sway you. But it should at a minimum make you reconsider your “prayer does not work” standpoint.
Fourth: “Past ‘Gods” are nearly identical”…yet, strangely enough, they don’t have a worldwide following. To my knowledge no one was willing to be martyred for any of them. No one willing to face torture, persecution, etc. That is strange indeed. Again, if you are going to put forth these claims, that is your choice (free will and all), but just be aware that there is a lot of good information out there that says otherwise. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html
Fifth – “the Bible is NOT the word of God” – do me a favor, read the newly released book “Has God Spoken” by Hank Hanegraaff. Or “The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. Or anything on the resurrection by Gary Habermas. Or read debates between a Christian and an atheist:
http://www.equipresources.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=juKOL1NNKiIQI1NLL9KMJ8PQImKZJ3PJJkJ5LdMVIuKbG&ProductID=430694
Or a guide to a recent Bart Ehrman book:
http://www.equipresources.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=hiKKJVNFJgJMKVODJ7IIK2NIIkJVKXPBKiL1J7NNIsK7G&ProductID=489326
If you will not accept the manuscript evidence for the Bible, then you really cannot accept it for anything else in history. But of course, we do accept lots of other writings as historically accurate….many with much less evidence than the writings that we today call the Bible. Try applying the same standard to the writings of the Bible as is applied to everything else and see what you get.
You may not change your mind (again with the free will), but at least you will be informed about what the other side REALLY thinks and not just what you think we do.
Sixth – you address evolution (some) but completely ignore the biggest problem for atheists – how did the universe begin? Most scientists agree it is not eternal, therefore it had a beginning. Everything that begins has a cause. What is that cause? Even if you argue that, as another atheist said elsewhere “it began as light and would have spontaneously begun generating matter as the initial energy levels would have caused matter conversion to begin”, that leaves a lot of unanswered questions – a) the photons still had to come from somewhere, b) why exactly would the initial energy levels have been great enough to have caused matter conversion to begin (and this just “spontaneously” happened)?, c) where would enough energy come from to create enough mass to form an entire universe? and d) matter does not equal biological life or diversity of non-life.
Evolution is really a secondary question that is not answered until you can demonstrate the creation of the entire universe could come from absolutely nothing (out of thin air) and develop into the universe we see today. And that life can come from non-life. Then we can start arguing about where complex life came from.
I could go through all of your other points one by one, but that would be a fruitless (and long) exercise. Ultimately, your case boils down to “well, I don’t think God should be like this or Christians believe x (straw man) and I don’t like that” so God is not real and I am right and Christians are all morons.
Assume for a minute that there is a Creator of the universe. An infinite, eternal, all-powerful, fully holy Being capable of making the sun, planets, lightening, a brain, etc. Do you really, really in your heart believe that one of his finite creatures with a life span of 75ish years should a) be able to fully understand Him and b) dictate how He should be?
First off I must ask where the stats of believing scientists came from, no sourcing whatsoever. Now to answer some questions, the reason why prayer doesnt work for scientificly, is that the very idea of prayer cannot be measured. Prayer is only answered when you are asking for God’s will, and that is immeasurable. Another thing is the lack of miracles, the reason why there were so many in the beginning was too get our attention, now that God has it there is no more need for miracles. People keep quoting the shellfish and how it is right next to the homosexuality verse in the old testament, however God removed the many laws in the New Testament, including clean and unclean foods but he still said sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is still a sin. Also these contradictions that are apparently there, if you take scripture into context and take in outside sources these disapear. Read Case for Christ by Lee Strobel about these contradictions. Alsp the idea that man can do nothing to be saved is only in Christianity, all other religions require action. These are just some of the arguments against the points raised on this site.